Folklorist of The Month - shirley moody turner

By: Lamont Jack Pearley

Shirley Moody-Turner is an associate professor of English and African American Studies and founding co-director with Gabrielle Foreman of the Center for Black Digital Research/#DigBlk. She is an Author and award-winning educator that says, “As a young girl growing up in Buffalo, NY, I felt a deep longing to learn more about my family history. I would listen and ask questions as my family shared stories and talked, but I always felt there was much more to our history — stories laying beneath layers of silence… ”

Well, Shirley has worked to unearth those stories and many others.  She has authored, edited, and written many books, essays, and journals depicting the African American story through a folkloric and ethnographic lens. She is highlighting and honoring the Black men and women scholars like her who have significantly contributed to the Blues and Black narrative of the Americas. 

Moody says, “My forthcoming edition, The Portable Anna Julia Cooper, was recently published with Penguin Classics. I am now at work on an interpretative biography of this trail-blazing Black feminist to be published by Yale University Press in 2024.” 

Her website also states, “Honoring the legacy of the intellectuals and activists I study, I also work in partnerships to carry these histories out into communities beyond the university. Through the Center for Black Digital Research/#DigBlk and the Black Women’s Organizing Archive, I work with extraordinary individuals to help public and scholarly audiences forge meaningful collaborations with the shared mission of bringing the buried and scattered histories of early Black organizing to digital life. “ 

In this interview, we get to discuss that and much more. 

LJP: I'm speaking with Dr. Shirley Moody Turner, founder and co-director of the Center for Black Digital Research—the founder co-director of the Cooper Dubois mentoring program. We’re going to get into that because I've been doing a lot of, I don’t want to say, re-research, but I've been doing much interrogating our elder intellect W.E.B. Dubois. So I want to talk about that. Associate Professor of English and African American Studies, affiliate faculty, and university libraries at Penn State. Her titles include but are not limited to the African American literature and transition 1900-1910, Black Folklore in the politics of racial representation, which is where I met her, and we're going to get into that because, believe it or not, in my quest to find black folklorists African American folklorists,  folklorist of color. When I couldn't find any, I did a different search. Dr. Moody is the first one I have found and interviewed who kind of launched this platform. We'll get into that. And correct and right now, right now, the title that is out and can be purchased is the portable Anna Julia Cooper penguin classic, which is a collection of essential writings from the iconic foremother of black women's intellectual history, Feminism, and activism, who helped pave the way for modern social justice movements like Black Lives Matter. And say her name. Let's welcome Dr. Shirley Moody Turner. Was that too long?

SMT: That was very nice. Thank you so much. It is wonderful to be here with you today. Thank you.

LJP: Thank you, as I was saying, so as I shared in the opening, you actually were the first African American folklorists I had the pleasure and honor to highlight an interview as that part of this journey took place.

SMT: Wow, that's wonderful. That is that's quite an honor. For me. I'm honored.

LJP: So, it was Black Folklore and The Politics of Racial Representation. That's what introduced me to your work. So now some years later, we are talking about the Center for Black Digital Research. We're talking about the Cooper Dubois mentoring program. And we're also talking about the Portable Anna Julia Cooper. Wait, I know I'm missing something. I know something I'm missing that we spoke about.

SMT: What else? What else? The black women's organizing archive and the African American literature and transition. That came out a couple maybe two years ago as well.

LJP: Wow. So I guess the first thing I should I ask you is when are you resting?

SMT: You know, it's funny you should ask that. I've been reading Tricia Hersey’s Rest is Resistance, a Manifesto and so I've actually been recommitting myself to you know, to finding time to rest to taking downtime to taking real breaks. And I can talk more about that as we continue but think, you know, it's been nice to get to a point where I can reflect on what all this work means to us, the way we live our lives to our health, our wellness, to taking good care of ourselves. Because if we don't do that, and do it for each other, then, you know, what, what are we doing this work for? So trying to recommit to a politics of rest? So it's a good question.

LJP: You know, because as someone who is doing the work, and understanding that it's just time-consuming. To see all the things that, you know, I have, one of the reasons why we celebrate you, and intellectuals and scholars like yourself is because you guys finish the projects. Everybody has an idea, but you're finishing these things. Right?

SMT: Well, sometimes it takes, you know, long timelines, it's funny, because you talk to journalists, and they're like, You academics, you know, taking two years, three years to put out an article. I guess it's all just different timelines.

LJP: So now, before we talk about the actual project, right, 

SMT: okay.

LJP:  Let's break down a couple of technical terms for the laypersons.

SMT:  Okay. 

LJP: Right. The first thing I would like to break down is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but do you straddle between history and folklore? Is it interdisciplinary for you? Could you walk us through that?

SMT: Yeah, that's a good question. I started, I did my graduate work in African American literature and Folklore studies. But there wasn't a degree in African American literature and Folklore studies, and there was a degree in English language and literature. My degree is in literature, but my work is in African American literature and folklore. So I have, I've always worked between those two fields.  But my work is in literature and in folklore studies. So I always make the distinction that I do folklore studies, I study how folklore operates, and how the discipline of folklore emerged. You know what folklore means in different contexts. And I have done work, you know, folklorists work out in the field, interviewing people, and have directed lots and lots of projects of students doing that kind of work. I worked on oral history projects. So I kind of cross disciplines, I think, I don't know that there's an elegant way to, you know, to kind of categorize it. I think I've kind of made my own way.

LJP: So I dig it and I really appreciate that because at least for me, African American Studies, literature for that matter, um, man English, if you will, but more well, African American studies, history, sociology, and literature, kind of, are interdisciplinary with folk studies with anthropology right, if you will, in the surveys, which lets you know, as you know, we've been here with me before, I'm going to jump around a bit in when I say surveys, as of now I'm thinking about WEB DuBois, who I've been interrogating for some time and having a lot of off cameras, and off microphone debates with some great folks about this gentleman. And I see that part of, well, one of the projects that you're working on is the Cooper DuBois mentoring program. We're gonna jump back and forth because we want to get back to your story. But I would like you to tell the audience, not just how this program came about. But why were these two iconic black scholars brought together for this particular program?

SMT: Yeah. Thank you. That's a great question. So it was very intentional. So the Cooper Dubois program is about creating opportunities for historically underrepresented students in Graduate Studies in Higher Education. And you know, a lot of people think of mentoring programs, and they think, Oh, well, let's provide these students with what they need, you know, to move to the next level, but a lot of the project is really about addressing structural issues, funding issues, opportunity to make these programs ready for these amazing students. So I looked, you know, I thought about Anna, Julia Cooper and WEB DuBois, two figures who had reached the heights of their academic and intellectual work. And, you know, Dubois getting his degrees University of Berlin and then Harvard, and a Julie Cooper, getting her degrees at Oberlin, and then the University of Paris Selborne. And so these were, you know, these were figures who had done this exemplary work, but they were also figures, especially for me, because I studied Cooper and Dubois, I'm sure too, but for me, especially for Cooper was someone who was so committed and worked so hard to make sure that there were opportunities for her students and who had to work, which she calls positive discouragement, you know, who had to work against this positive discouragement to higher education for black students in particular. And so, I can talk about this a little more when we get to the book, too. But you know, one of her greatest what she said was her greatest contribution was creating pathways from Ivy League schools to top black colleges and universities for her students at M Street. And when she did that, she was not reappointed as principal of M Street because of that work, you know, and so, even as she was, you know, preparing her students and, you know, supporting and encouraging their black excellence in their placement, she was being, you know, positively discouraged, and retaliated against for that work. And so, I wanted to recognize what it meant for these two figures to carry out that work. And for these students to be, you know, beneficiaries of that legacy, and really to recognize that when we say these things, you know, Cooper and Dubois did this work, what did it mean for them to actually,  what did they put at risk to carry out that work and for these students to have a chance to be part of that was really important.

LJP: That was a very interesting point. I'm going to tell you why. Just sticking with Dubois and Cooper, and then looking at the bigger picture and collective,  we are used to celebrating what we believe are the victories that were fought by our predecessors but not usually aware of the price they had to pay. Right. First, I want to commend you for bringing that up. I would like to know, as a scholar, writer, and professor, how do you even begin to address that part of the process, right? Like, just for example, Mr. Charles and his last name escapes me right now. But he's one of the original SNCC members and choir members. And I was able to sit and speak with him and his wife. And he shared a story with me and said, it's not about, you know, all this other stuff that you've been talking about. It's about training, not what I've been told  He said it's about the training. Right? The training for the moment doesn't necessarily look like you're sitting on Oprah, Oprah's couch, being interviewed, right? And how you have to deal with those moments that you could be injured, or those moments, whatever the injury could be physical, financial, or even exiled from a country. Right. Could you walk us through how you approach that? Because most black folk don't get a chance to talk about that?

SMT:   I think, you know, for a lot of the women that I study, 19th-century black women, writers, intellectuals, activists. There's a term which I don't, I don't exactly like the way it sounds, but you know, there's a kind of politics of failure, you know, what people might perceive as a failure that they, you know, they were unable to get their work published, or they were unable to, you know, win this lawsuit, or they were unable to achieve this grant. And, again, you know, I think it's so important for those moments to make clear the ways in which this, the systems and the structures are set up, you know, to do that, and the ways in which race and gender and being honest about the places where we meet those challenges, helps reveal how those systems and structures work and operate. But I think also, I think probably two really critical things is having a clear purpose. You know, once one gets clear about their purpose, and I look at, I'll probably talk about Anna, Julia Cooper a lot in this interview, since, you know, we're having finished the book, but then also the addition and then also working on a biography on her right now. But, you know, she was very clear about her purpose. She had a very, very clear purpose. She was committed to education as a means of social change and transformation. And so she could see that because she actually was when she was on not reappointed as principal of M Street, in 1905 1906. She was exiled, you know, and ended up or excommunicated. She went to Missouri for four or five years before she could return and work at M Street, but never again, as a principal, only as a teacher. And her sense of purpose, her sense of, you know, a spiritual religious, if you want to call it imbued a sense of purpose and commitment, is one of the things that sustained her in those times. And then to the community, and so even when we think even when I think about Cooper being quote, unquote, exiled in, you know, to Missouri, there were people. We kind of forget this sometimes, but there were people who were there who made sure she had employment. She had connections. She had a network so that she wasn’t, you know, even when the powers that be when fell out of favor, which of course, you know, we eventually do, there was a community and a network there to support her through that, and so I think it's just so important having a clear sense of purpose. And knowing that as circumstances change, that purpose is still there to guide and have a network and a community that extends beyond the kinds of institutions we might be part of.

LJP: So with that, now, you know what I have to ask you, how did we get to the legendary Cooper, what lead you to her?

SMT: That's a very good question, too. They're all gonna be good questions. So interestingly, I was introduced to Cooper through the Schomburg 19th-century black women writers series put out these small volumes of 19th-century black women writers’ work. And the one for Cooper, Mary, Helen Washington, one of the kind of foundational figures of black feminist literary criticism, wrote the introduction for that Anna Julia Cooper, a voice from the South edition. And when I read her introduction, I was just amazed, I was amazed by the way, she talked about Cooper, the things that she shared in terms of you know, how Kubrick negotiated all of the challenges that she was up against, how she articulated and gave voice and named a black feminist position already in the 19th century. And then especially what she said was, you know, Cooper, had dedicated her life to the education of the underprivileged, or to the most neglected people. And there was something about that, that just struck me as a graduate student starting off and someone who was and is devoted to teaching and education. So it was Mary Helen's introduction before I even got to Anna Julie Cooper's words, it was her introduction that really, you know, brought me in and opened it up for me, and I think it's just so important because we think about the work, like the editorial apparatus, and that work that literary scholars and, and historians do, and like introducing us to new works. And it's so important, you know, it's so important because that was, you know, I didn't come to voice from the south, I came to Mary Helens introduction. And so that's how I got into  Anna Julia Cooper. And then of course, I started reading her work. And, you know, I was just struck by how contemporary even though it was very her language, she loves kind of rhetorical play, long winding sentences with these, like, ironic turnarounds. And, you know, so her language was very, you know, elevated and sophisticated. And it also spoke to named things that were happening in the 19th century that still felt very present when I was reading it. And so I think that was my entry into Cooper. And then I'm happy, I think the reason I started writing about her and wanted to do the addition really was because I when I was doing the work on the first book, Black Folklore and The Politics of Racial Representation, I came across two pieces, a letter and then a short essay that Cooper had written on black folklore. And that was always so surprising to me because I was like Anna, Julia Cooper, you know, you've got this picture of this Victorian, very proper, you know, scholar, and then I was like, What is she doing hanging around with these folklorists in Hampton, Virginia.(Laughter)  And so that started a whole new kind of, it opened a whole new world for me, because then I was like, well, I only know her in such a limited way. That's when I realized. I just knew her in such a limited way. And so I really wanted to know what else we don't know about her. You know, if she's talking to these folklorists, and being so bold, and calling out one of the founders and the Secretary of the American Folklore Society, William Wells Newell, you know, calling him out and telling the folklorist that they need to be true to themselves and look for the folklore that resides closest to them and their lives, their communities, their families. I was like, what else is she doing? What else is she up to? And that started me on this whole journey of kind of pulling together her scattered archives from across different repositories.