Langston Collin Wilkins - Folklorist Of The Month

Houston native Langston Collin Wilkins, PhD is a folklorist, ethnomusicologist and writer. Currently, Wilkins serves as Washington State’s state folklorist and is Director of the Center for Washington Cultural Traditions, a program of Humanities Washington and the Washington State Arts Commission. Langston’s commitment to the preservation, documentation, and the raising of awareness regarding African American music, tradition, cultures and communities culminate in his making significant contributions to the black folk narrative, black folklife and the many expressions birthed in the urban and rural landscape of African American life. 

Along with Wilkin’s work with Washington State’s Center for Washington Cultural Traditions, Langston also launched Street Folk, which is a curated gallery of African American and inner-city artistry and history. With a PhD in Folklore & Ethnomusicology from Indiana University, Wilkin’s interests have included urban folklife, African American folklife and hip hop culture. I had the opportunity to sit with Langston Collin Wilkins and discuss his work. 

Interview: 

Lamont Jack Pearley:  We are honoring today and talking with and getting the story of brother Langston Collin Wilkins. So you're doing some really interesting stuff. So first and foremost, let's get into your journey into folklore.

Langston Collin Wilkins: Well, it was a long, long journey, and a long unintentional journey, you know. So I'm from [born and raised] Houston, Texas, a neighborhood called Harm Clark, which was a predominant black neighborhood in Houston. You know, my dad was a culture worker, you know, he, I think, was a folklorist, but didn't consider himself one. So he was in the community doing, you know, community research, cultivating Creative Arts in the area, and doing things like that. So I was introduced, right, with this concept of preserving and presenting all cultural art from a very early age. But, you know, I became, I guess, officially engaged with the field of folklore in graduate school at Indiana University. I went to graduate school to just study hip hop, really, you know, that’s all I wanted to do. But, you know, as I went on, I learned about the field of folklore, learned about especially public folklore, right, and started to pursue  the public sector alongside my academic work, right. So the public sector work really took off, and I really got connected with it. And now I stand here as a state folklorist for Washington State. And, yeah, here I am. And I still do, you know, my hip hop and African American folklore work. So I'm all over the place. And I think it's a really cool way, you know.

Lamont Jack Pearley: So you know what, that's a great place to segue. The difference between academic folklore and the public sector folklore? Could you share that with us? And on the back end of that, is it different when it's coming from specifically someone who is melanated? 

Langston Collin Wilkins: That's a good question. You know, the bigger question of the difference between academic folklore and public folklore. That could take all day, and, you know, and ruffle a bunch of feathers? You know, I think they're kind of two sides of the same coin. You know, I think both academic folklorists who study traditions, publish journal articles and books, and teach about them, you know, they're certainly serving a really important purpose, right. I mean, I've taught before, I'll teach in the future. So that's certainly important as well, I'll publish too. At the same time, the public sector folklorists who are doing really publicly accessible work, right there, in communities working with these different communities to share their forms, right. they're doing very important work as well. And I think  it's, we need both of them, right. I think though, for  melanated folklorists, it's hard to, it's hard to not be both, you know, kind of academically inclined and in the public sector, right? Because, no matter where we go, we're really tied to our communities. Right. So, we could be in academia doing our thing, right. But I just think we don't get lost in that world. Right. I mean, all the black folklorists I know are people of the community, and no matter where they are doing their work, they continue to be tied to the community, right? Because what they're trying to do is not just preserve traditions from outside, you know, these outside traditions, they're trying to preserve their own history and culture too. Right. You know. So, yeah, I can only speak for myself as a black folklorist, but I think those two sides are just kind of fundamental to our work as folklorists. Yeah. So yeah, I hope that's not too political. But that's just the way I see it, you know?

Lamont Jack Pearley: No, no, no, that's good. And again, it’s a great segue, because, and I've asked you this before, the I don't say difference, but the different perspective in history as a discipline, and folklore as a discipline, right. And then, when we look at African American studies as a discipline, it's heavily ingrained with ethnography, anthropology, political science, sociology, and in African American Studies a word it doesn't use. But in this case, it applies. [Folklore folklorist.] I guess the first question I want to ask on that note is, is it true that folklore or the term folklore wasn't readily used in African American studies? Because that was more of a westernized version or discipline? Where ethnography, anthropology, psychology, all these other things, sociology, these were more prevalent to the black struggle.

Langston Collin Wilkins: Yeah, I've heard that before. I think I'm not sure. I mean, I feel like, you know, growing up, we had a book in the house called African American folklore. Right. So I heard this term back in the late 80s, early 90s. So it's always been a part of my lexicon. And, you know, I was aware of black folklorists who self identified as such, or at least used the word. So I'm, I'm not sure if for some reason, I've gotten the sense that the term folklore for some people has a dirty connotation, right, that [some] people feel like it's reductive or or even harmful. Right. But I don't know, I don't, I've never felt that way. I feel like, if you understand what folklore is, and what it really means, and that it's not a term that describes a study of lesser people. It's not that it's a term that describes just the creative expressions of various cultural groups, right, from a very culturally specific and focused way. Yeah, I think it's fine, but I'm not sure why the field isn't as prominent as these other fields. Despite the long history of folklore work. I'm not sure I'm talking about within African American academic circles, right. I'm not sure. That's a tough question. Yeah.

Lamont Jack Pearley: This wasn't intended to be an ambush question, but as I said it I was like, well, wow, this is kind of, but you raise a point that the surface view of folklore [folklorist], the study of, seems to predicate the investigation of lesser. Primitive, so to speak. Because that term is used a lot. So could it be that terms like primitive, and  obscure, are the things that turn off, I guess a percentage of black academics in this discipline? 

Langston Collin Wilkins: That's quite possible. Yeah. I think there was a lot of harm done by some of the folklore forefathers and foremothers. And even this is true up until, you know, probably very recent, I'm not sure. But yeah, I mean, in terms like primitive, lesser, and other, these are terms that only work to reinforce this harmful, racist society that we've had to function in, you know, I mean, it's symbolic racism, right, there is language racism. So I can imagine, yeah, that will certainly turn off people who are interested in these studies, because who wants to? Who wants to engage in tradition that feels like they are lesser or primitive? Who would want to do that? At the same time, I'm not sure these other fields are any more, or have been any more welcoming. But I think yeah, if you do, go back and read some of the early works on African American folk traditions, it's a bit harmful. Yeah. So that does make sense.

Lamont Jack Pearley: I want to get to your works. But I do want to ask this tail end question on this particular topic. And we can even go as far as saying the segment, right. Booker T, Washington, and W.E.B. Dubois. They had multiple public feuds. But based on your last answer, one particular public feud comes to mind and this is really more of a statement from Booker T, where he says, “We don't need philosophy, we need tradesmen.” So is there a misconception in the study of folklore and folk groups in the black community specifically, that it doesn't come across as a viable trade but more in the philosophy space?

Langston Collin Wilkins:  Yeah, and you know, Booker T, Washington has been maligned a great deal. Especially in recent years, and I certainly understand what the criticisms were coming from, and, I agree with lots of them. But, I come from a working class, black neighborhood, you know, I understand the struggle. And I understand that one of the biggest needs in those communities is money, money, and jobs. Right. So from a very practical standpoint, I understand what he was trying to say there. At the same time, I think it's also important, what he calls philosophy, is absolutely important, to our community, and must be cultivated and reinforced continuously. I mean, we need to understand who we are, who we are now, right? And also who we were, in order to understand and generate who we are in the future, and who we will be, right.  And so I think fields like folklore, right, which really helps highlight and illuminate who we are as a people, right? Because we're talking about our language, our ways of life, our thoughts, our creative expressions, right? All the way down to our clothing, and just how we operate as a people, it's important to understand and preserve this. It's important for just the historical record, but also just our mental health as a community, right? We need this, right? So just like we need trades, and just jobs and cash money, right, we need to understand who you are. Right? And I think those two will lead to a healthy black community. I think it is unfortunate that there's a lot of people in our community, and I see it all the time, on Twitter, social media, and even in real life who say, hey, why would you go to school to become a folklorist, you need to be, you know, you need to go into business law, or medicine, or engineering, right, these trades that make money and that's real, right. But, I feel like there's a need in our society for folks like us folklorist people who are trying to just, you know, really highlight and illuminate. You know, who we are as a people, right alongside all those other fields. You know, I think we need more. That's what I would say to folks who continue to have these kinds of debates. We need some of Booker T. 's perspective. And we also need W.E.B Dubois.

Lamont Jack Pearley: Okay. So with that being said, and then now bringing it back to you, along with this conversation of the mission statement, so to speak of African American studies as a discipline, black liberation as just the bottom line, and being a folklorist. A term I like to use is applied folklorist, right. Because quoting David Banner, I heard something recently, it wasn't a recent statement, but I heard it recently. He said the reason a particular group of blacks is mad at educated blacks is that they were supposed to go to the north, get the education, and bring it back. And help those that were left behind. Pretty much sprout [move ahead] A lot of your work does that. Could you talk to us about this?

Langston Collin Wilkins:  I'd love to actually, yeah. Because that's where my mentality is, right. I grew up in a very complicated household. Not a bad way. It’s just I grew up in, both my parents were educated, both of them had college degrees, right, my dad, his degree was in the theater. My mom was in, she had a science degree of sorts. But I was growing up right there and in the hood. Right. And so I just had a really interesting perspective and outlook, you know, on things. And, because I was growing up in a black environment, certainly understood racism, but I also understood class divisions. Right? I felt like, right there under race, class affected our community in incredible ways, you know, these class divisions amongst black people, right. I've always wanted to use any privilege I had to celebrate, highlight, and just help continue to cultivate the traditions and expressive culture of the black working class because I feel like that's where I came from. Right. And that's who made me and that's what supported me. And, you know, considering, the various lines of oppression that our folks face, we're still able to create and create very incredible things, whether it's blues down to hip hop or whatever, right? And so, that's what I want to do. Yeah, sure, I have a Ph.D., I'm doing whatever I do, right. But it's all rooted in the culture of the black working class. And that's what I want to show, that's why I want to celebrate. And I want to help folks who continue to live in those neighborhoods see that, “Hey, look, you are doing something special, and something important, and continue to do it.” And hey, look, if some of y'all want to help preserve and celebrate these traditions, hey, there's a field called folklore that you can get into that will help support you as you do that. So, um, everything I do is really about, black folks, you know, in the hood, and I'm not ashamed of that. I love it. That's what I want to do.

Lamont Jack Pearley: What would be, and it's somewhat of a broad question, maybe hard to answer. So you don't have to do it as broadly as it may sound, the solutions to engage black communities of the low middle class to low income that may not know that these lanes are available, but know that or would agree that the works that you do are viable for them, their family and community? 

Langston Collin Wilkins: Oh, yeah. That's an important question. A big question, but a really important question. I think, honestly, the first part of this, it's on us as black folklorists, right, to continue to highlight and celebrate what we do, right, to show that, hey, there are pathways. There are career pathways, you know, for folks who want to be a part of this folklore thing. I think we need to get out and get into communities, right? Continue to do applied folklore work in those communities, working with the communities to produce events and publications and, all these things, and we got to start, we got to get folks when they're young. These kids need to see us in the community, not just at the school, or the university, not just in the state government, you know, where I work, or whatever. We need to be in the communities talking about what we do, talking about who we are. And I think that's kind of the first step right, too, you know, helping people see the viability of these journeys and these pathways. Otherwise, I mean, I think there are some real structural issues here. I mean, this is a structural problem, right? I mean, a lot of our communities are poor, right. And, when you're poor, you, in many ways are forced to think in really practical ways just to survive from day to day, right. So what that does is it kind of limits in some ways your imagination, and limits your ability to take what some might see as risks. Right. If you're a white person coming from an upper middle class or higher class background, you can go to college and you can become a folklorist, then, you know, maybe, you have some sort of security blanket under you that if you happen to fall in some kind of way, or if money gets tight, you have a safety net. Again, I'm not speaking for all white people in this room at all. But, you know, that's part of this. That's just America, right? [For] Black people, it’s just not always so true. I didn't feel like I had that. But I took the leap anyway. But I think what we need to do is, again, be in communities actively. I think we need to create situations or events where we can bring kids and help them explore University folklore programs, and also explore internships or whatever with nonprofits like yours to get that practical experience. And just to help them dream a bit bigger, that's what we're talking about, and understand that, whereas you might not have that financial safety net, there is a community of folklorists that are like you out there who are willing to support you, however ways they can, and give you opportunities wherever they can. I think that's just the first two steps for me, right. But, you know, I think this structural issue affects many cultural fields, right? We need more black writers and black filmmakers and blacks in the arts in general, right. But it's just, you know, hard for some of us to take that risk. I get that, but we need to do so.

Lamont Jack Pearley:  So and you slightly mentioned this. I don't want to phrase this as being divisive. I know you would understand my question, but I mean, audience-wise. I have to ask the straight. Is there along with what you just described with that question, a difference between practicing Black folklorists and everyone else. Meaning the difference between black and white folklorists, and other nonblack folklorists?

Langston Collins Wilkins: Well, in what ways?

Lamont Jack Pearley: How we operate and the purpose behind those operations?

Langston Collins Wilkins:  So, you know, and again, I know personally that a lot of these white folklorists come from all kinds of spaces and places, and, a lot of them also grew up in rural environments poor and are trying to celebrate the communities that they came from too, and have some serious struggles as they're trying to, you know, move up in grow. But I think this is a question, right, that is a mix of race and class, too. Right. That's what we're talking about. Right. I think for the black folklorists, our work is so rooted in who we are and our experiences. Our experiences and the experiences of our ancestors, right. That's where we're coming from. That's what we're working from, especially if we're working on black traditions, right? We're trying to preserve the self, you know, and that's why you see our work is so focused on black people, by and large, whereas, you know, I think a lot of white folklorists, and this is true for white people who are able to move into higher education and academia, and these pursuits in general, they're able to more easily and more actively just study almost anything, right? I mean, they don't seem to be working from that. That personal, cultural space that a lot of us work from, right. And again, I'm not speaking for everybody, I'm just, you know, it's just what I see right, a white folklorist can go study us black people, or go study, somewhere in rural Kentucky, right? Or go over to Macedonia or something like that, right. Black people, we're studying the self. And, you know, we're really trying to understand who we are. And we're trying to, you know, really inspire the future, our future selves and the people who look like us. And, you know, that's what we're trying to do. But that's how I answer that question. Yeah, I think that's how that's how I see it, you know, its a different approach, you know?

Lamont Jack Pearley: Yeah, we are subtracting white folklorists from a humble beginning. I wanted to word that properly, right, From a humble beginning, they are in close proximity to our experience, but not necessarily the same. They can be subtracted from this equation. So in a bigger picture, we will and correct me if I'm wrong. There is an option, that they can just go and gravitate to anything, and develop a personal connection, rather than we are really trying to figure out what the hell happened? 

Langston Collin Wilkins: Yeah. I mean, I think when you grow when you're black, right? I mean, no matter how old you are, you're still trying to figure out who you are, and how you got here, right? I mean, goodness, I can't tell you, I can only trace my personal family history or family tree, back to like, 1880, or something like that, right? Because of slavery, you know, all that history was lost. I'm still trying to figure out how I got here. Right. And so I think that's just kind of where we're working from, a lot of us, I see it in the work that you do, I see it in the work a lot from our peers, you know, other black folklorists. And, it's also true. You know, I had a great grad school experience, and I came in there wanting to study black people. Right. That's what I care about. Right. But I think it's also true that when you're black and in grad school, because of the market, right? And because of just you know, our society, no matter what you're trying to study, you're kind of steered towards studying black people.I mean, I've seen that firsthand. People who've had these wide-ranging interests, being told, “Hey, look, you got to get a job. In the future. Maybe you just study something black.” Because that's kind of the space that you occupy. In this academic world. I've seen that I think that's true. Whereas again, if White people can do whatever they want, they can get their Ph.D. studying blackness, and then get jobs teaching that, and again, I'm not criticizing them at all. I've learned a lot from nonblacks. I'm just stating a fact that I see. It's fine. It's just what's not fine is black people being only able to occupy certain lanes, that was not fine. But again, you know, so many of us want to study ourselves for very valid reasons, you know, so it's a complicated situation that deserves a whole episode in itself.

Lamont Jack Pearley: So, okay, I want to focus on some of your work because I could ask these questions. You did a couple of programs that you've initiated, produced and been part of, I want to talk about as many as we can. I know there's one, where you're working with with brothers in a prison system. And then there's another one that you've been working on that I believe, also incorporates podcasts. Talk to us about these things. 

Langston Collin Wilkins: Oh, yeah, do a few things. So in terms of the prison system, I've been able to connect with an incredible organization called University Beyond Bars, which, for many years has provided higher education within Washington state prison systems. And last year, I was able to teach a course on hip hop culture for incarcerated students here in Washington State. It was interrupted because of COVID. Right. But, you know, for the weeks I was there, it was an incredible experience. I mean, they're, you know, again, the the prison industrials, you know, the system is a whole episode in itself. But they're, they're so much black intelligence and talent, behind bars. And so many of our, you know, most dynamic people, because of, you know, this racist society are locked up, right. And, I knew that before teaching the class, but I think just teaching the class, really hammered it home.  Because there were many moments in there where I was a student, I was learning from those folks, their experiences, their understanding and approach and connections to hip hop, their criticism, their severe criticism of the music. You know, I was learning a lot. And so, yeah, I was able to teach a course. And, you know, I'm still a volunteer with that program, and hoping to connect with those students in some form again. 

Lamont Jack Pearley: The program that you also produce podcasts for? And then you have another one? I can't think of the name off the top my head, but I know you have an Instagram page for it. 

Langston Collin Wilkins: Oh, Yeah. So we also, through my job at the Center for Washington Cultural Traditions, I got to plug them. I was able to develop a new publication called The Rites of Green, which celebrates Washington State folklife of various forms. And, you know, we take a very, I think, progressive and liberal approach to the term folklife, right? We're talking about traditions that have existed for centuries, probably, but also things like hip hop, and B-Boying and stuff that. Maybe 40 to 50 years old, right? So we're trying to include that all within its rights and bringing publications, we produce, yes, several podcasts that are now featured on our site, Rite to Green.Com. We're continuing. This year, we're focusing our work on food ways and food traditions. So we're coming out with an actual issue on food ways. It's going to be, multi media, featuring  podcasts, photo essays and more. And so again, this is a new endeavor, something that I was able to do, because we had some leftover funds last year, and I needed to do something with it. And I decided to do a publication and it's going really well. Yeah, so far. And then yeah,I do other stuff. My own brand Street Folk. I lectures and write. I have a book in the works. So I'm just out here grinding, you know, I'm saying, This is what I do. 

Lamont Jack Pearley: Yes, because you’re grinding!  See, and that's funny, because grinding is synonymous with black culture. Right? Talk to us about Street Folk,  its inception and the inspiration that led to it. 

Langston Collin Wilkins: Oh, man.  This is something again, this is still very much in development. I think it always will be because I'm always thinking of different things. But it's just an idea, right that I kind of got maybe a decade ago as I was out there doing field work in Houston, back in my neighborhoods where I was studying hip hop. And then I started studying this car culture called slab from Houston. And I just realized that hey, what I'm interested in is the creative expression of the black Street. This Culture, right? And yeah, you know, part of that is the underground economic networks that have arisen because of the structural racism. But within those spaces within the street, there's tons of creativity, right? The music, car culture, clothing, language, and more, right. And so that's why I want to celebrate and that's why I want to highlight through street folk, and I just tried to identify street folk, as a particular folk group, within the black community, and I'm just trying to explore and highlight that creativity. That's what I was trying to do. And so everything I do on my own, it's kind of filtered through that Street Folk idea. And it's a celebration of those people. And that's who I'm trying to, you know, again, help connect with this world of folklore, and show that, “hey, you're right, you are doing amazing things, you’re artists, you’re creatives, and you need to be celebrated as such. So that's what Street Folk is. That's what I'm trying to do.

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